Live Like It's True {Bible Podcast}

The Truth From Jesus When You Compare Sin {Tasha Calvert}

• Tasha Calvert • Season 7 • Episode 64

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What if Jesus could read your thoughts about other people's sins? And what about your own sins? Do you have shameful secrets that seem too awful to even confess? In this episode, we're going to consider a story Jesus told at a dinner party where someone was comparing sin. It's a story that exposes our false narratives about sin, and invites us into a beautiful story of forgiveness.

Tasha is an author, speaker, Bible teacher, and the host of the “Digging In with Tasha Calvert” weekly podcast.

Guest: Tasha Calvert

Bible Passage: Story of the Two Debtors in Luke 7:36-50 CSB

Teen Comparison Quizzes: ComparisonGirl.com

Mentioned Resources: 

Transcript: Available here

Music: Cade Popkin

Resound Media: Go to www.ResoundMedia.cc for more Gospel centered resources.

Connect with Tasha:

Website: tashacalvert.com

Instagram: tistashcalvert

Podcast: Digging In with Tasha Calvert

Visit ComparisonGirl.com and get the answers both she and you need in my new book, Comparison Girl for Teens: Thriving Beyond Measure in a World That Compares. Conversation starters, quizzes and more. 

Get your free False Narrative Watchlist. 

Learn more at ShannonPopkin.com.

Shannon:

Asha Calvert, welcome to Live.

Tasha:

Like it's True. Pnn, I'm so happy to be with you today. What an honor.

Shannon:

I am so excited. I feel like I just made a new friend. You know, yes, we were just chatting a little bit before we hit record and I'm just delighted to be talking with you today. You serve as the women's minister at Preston Wood, which is a large multi-site church in Texas it is Yep and you are an author, speaker, bible teacher and the host of Digging In with Asha Calvert.

Tasha:

And we both get to do podcasts. It's fun to be on the other side of the mic.

Shannon:

I love it and I love that you do a podcast about the Bible. You know, like, really, we can be talking about all sorts of things that we have to think about and say, but the Bible has so much for us to be thinking through and living and we just don't get enough Bible. So I love that there's another Bible podcast out there and then I get to talk to another.

Tasha:

Bible girl, I know, but we won't call ourselves Bible nerds, even though others might call us that right, yes, we're just cool Bible chicks, or? I don't know Cool Bible chicks. Yes, the Bible is our favorite. I love that.

Shannon:

It is our favorite. I also want to mention, too, that your church provides resources to equip churches across the country online by request, so these are like free resources that you put together.

Tasha:

Yeah, oh, shannon, thank you for saying that. So we actually I think we have 11 out there right now but we go through books of the Bible. We go back and forth between the Old Testament and the New Testament I am big on. The more competent you are in scripture, the more confident you are in your faith, and so we are really just trying to take our women through a journey of getting to know their Bible. Okay, and since we record that and since we're a resourced church to where we've been able to provide that for our women, we have just opened that up and said if your church needs some resources, we will send you everything we've got. So we've got study guides, discussion questions, teaching videos and all the things that you would need. If you're studying with a neighborhood group or your church or whatever it is, we are happy to give that away. You can just reach out to us at Preston would just go to our website, find the women's ministry page and click the connect button. We'll get you set up. I just love that.

Shannon:

I love that, just open-handed, like this, is all what I've been given from the Lord and I'm just sharing it with you. So that is great, and I just want to say I love the emphasis of your church on teaching women. Teaching women, all right. We're gonna talk, though, about a really one of my favorite Bible stories ever today, and tucked inside this story is a comparison story that Jesus tells, and it's a story about sinners, and so sin is something we don't really love to talk about. Sin or think about our sin. It's like we kind of want to shove that off to the side. Tasha, do you have any stories about either your kids or yourself where somebody was just trying to hide their sin or not own their sin?

Tasha:

Yeah, well, so I'm a mom, I have four daughters and I will tell this kind of anonymously, so you will not be able to know which of my four. This is what. First of all, I could tell stories on any of us all day, because this is just a natural human tendency. But I can remember back when one of my older daughters was kind of in her teenage years and she was testing the waters, so to speak, and we really had no clue where she was testing those waters. And my husband is very techy, he works for Microsoft and she asked for some help because her computer was running slow and he had her laptop and was trying to fix it for her. Like she had handed it over and in doing so she had synced her messages with her laptop.

Shannon:

You probably see where this is going.

Tasha:

And so some of her friends started texting her while he's fixing the computer. And turns out there were a few things that we did not know were going on with said child, that she had been hiding from us, that we very innocently but very providentially found out.

Shannon:

Very providentially yeah.

Tasha:

So yeah. So I think that's a natural tendency. Sometimes we like to justify our sin, but the reality is, when we're trying to hide it, there's something inside of us that knows hey, we're off course here.

Shannon:

Yeah, yeah, but I think our first inclination is to hide it, to deny it. You know, I was talking with a little girl one time after Sunday school. I had presented the gospel to the children and this little girl responded I don't know if she, like, raised her hand or something. She wanted to talk to me afterward, and so I pulled her aside and I let's just call her name Carrie, and I said Carrie, are you feeling convicted about your sin? Because whenever I'm talking to children or anybody about the good news, I wanna back up and talk about the bad news. The bad news is your sin. And she said, oh no, I don't sin.

Shannon:

And I said, oh well, I opened my Bible to one of those verses that lists out a bunch of sins and I said have you ever done any of these? And she said, oh no, never. And I said, well, what about this verse? For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And she said I think I'm ready to go back to my class now. Okay, I walked back to her class with her and her teacher so excited because she knew that I was gonna be praying with little Carrie. And the teacher says to her hey, do you have anything that you wanna tell the class? And Carrie says yes, and she stands, they're all sitting at this little round table. She stands before them and she kinda sweeps her finger and says all of you have sinned.

Tasha:

And she does it twice Her little finger.

Shannon:

All of you have sinned. I just I mean I wanted to die laughing, but that is just our nature. All of y'all have sinned and it's not my problem. It's just to focus the attention on somebody else's sin and not our own, and we're gonna see somebody in our Bible study doing that very thing. Right, you know, like your daughter, like wanting to hide what I've done and never like bring it into the light, Like it's very rare for someone to wanna bring their sin directly to Jesus. That's what we need to do.

Tasha:

You're exactly right.

Shannon:

So this story is found in Luke seven and I'm just gonna give us a little backdrop and then have you read the story Jesus tells. But basically there's this Pharisee named Simon who has he's hosting this dinner party, probably for religious leaders, and he's invited Jesus, and there's this woman, a sinful woman, from the city, and she's heard that Jesus is there. So she comes in during the dinner party and she comes in behind Jesus and in those days they would recline at the table. So he's kinda leaning on his side and his feet are behind him, and so she's there behind him and she starts crying and she's dripping her tears on his feet, and then she wipes his feet clean with her hair and then she takes this ointment which she had prepared and she pours it. She like probably breaks the flask and pours it on his feet and she's kissing and she's crying and she's wiping, and it's just the scene and it is embarrassing. I mean she is making a big old, messy fool of herself. You know, this is like a snotty mess.

Shannon:

And so while she's doing this, simon, you know the host of the dinner party, the Pharisee he looks over and he's thinking to himself clearly this guy, jesus, is not a prophet. You know, if he were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is Like. She's touching him, she's making him unclean. You know she's a sinner. And then Jesus turns to Simon and says, simon, I have something to say. So that is our scene, tasha, like this is what's happening. And then Jesus is going to tell the story. I mean, have you read it? But is there anything else you'd add, like you know, to bring clarity to what's going on in the backdrop?

Tasha:

here. There's a couple of things that stand out to me about what you just shared. First of all, I love that you said that she probably broke a flask to pour this on. You know, back in that culture, many times the women wore that alabaster flask around their neck like it was part of who they were. So she is not just symbolically pouring out you know something that's valuable, but she is literally pouring out part of her, you know part of who she is. She is offering something very precious and intimate to her, to to break before before the feet of Jesus and then to. I mean the irony that Simon thinks this about, about Jesus, and then Jesus is going to answer his audible thoughts that I mean exactly. That's like the ultimate might drop moment. Ok, totally, totally.

Shannon:

Yeah, ok, so I want to respond to both of those things. So first, the flask she probably was a prostitute. I mean, we don't know that for sure, we don't know right, but she probably was, and this was probably her most valued possession. Yeah, they excavated just hundreds or thousands of these little alabaster flasks that had these long skinny necks. They'd wear them like a pendant and so she's going to pour that out. She'd have to snap the neck, you know, and maybe she had to pull it off her head. So maybe that's why she let down her hair. We don't know, but she snaps the neck. So she's like really breaking ties.

Shannon:

Yes, that's so good, yeah, yeah, you can imagine, as a prostitute, like this would have been her allurement. You know for her the way that she earned money and she is breaking ties with that and pouring that on Jesus's feet. I mean, it's this beautiful scene, it is precious what she's doing and I absolutely love what you said. You know, clearly he is not a prophet. And then he, as a prophet, responds to Simon's thoughts Like, yeah, yes, total mic drop. So I mean, I just think you can't get any better drama than seriously, this is a movie scene.

Tasha:

Don't you just laugh when people are like the Bible is so boring, You're like you haven't read it Exactly. It is anything but boring.

Shannon:

This is. This is a moment that is filled with tension, apparently, because you know, we didn't really mention putting her hair down like that is scandalous, you know. That'd be like maybe walking in church with your sports bra or something like this. Yeah, it's just not, it's, she's not appropriate for the setting, right, and so, and they're all looking at her, they think of her as a sinner. Oh, you know, the other thing we didn't mention Tasha is like this touching, I mean, she's kissing, she's touching, she's kissing his feet, she's making him, you know, unclean, like there's, there are these clean, unclean, clean, clean, unclean laws and they think of her as unclean. So she's like they think she's contaminating Jesus, right, and the most natural thing that I think to do would be what To pull away, to push her away, to stand up to get her off of him.

Shannon:

Yeah, get her away, like that's what any of the other Pharisees would do. Yeah, and Jesus does something completely, completely unexpected.

Tasha:

Right, exactly.

Shannon:

He tells a story. Yeah, so, all right. So could you read for us this little story Jesus tells, starting in verse 40 through 43.

Tasha:

Yes, absolutely. Beginning in verse 40, jesus replied to him Simon, I have something to say to you. He said say it, teacher, a creditor had two debtors One owed 500 denarii and the other 50. Since they could not pay it back, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more? Simon answered I suppose the one he forgave more. I love that. He says, I suppose there, like he knows he might be walking into a trap. And Jesus responds you have judged correctly, he told him.

Tasha:

Turning to the woman, he said to Simon do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she, with her tears, has washed my feet and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but she hasn't stopped kissing my feet since I came in. You didn't anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with perfume. Therefore, I tell you her, many sins have been forgiven. That's why she loved much. But the one who is forgiven little loves little. And then he said to her your sins are forgiven. Those who were at the table with him began to say among themselves who is this man who even forgives sins? And he said to the woman your faith has saved you. Go in peace. I love it. I said that in tandem right there.

Shannon:

I love it. Yeah, it's so good.

Tasha:

It's so beautiful and I'm so, so like our savior. So like our savior. I've obviously never had the actual physical ability to touch the feet of Jesus, but I have so often felt his love envelop me in times when I've been broken and pouring myself out before him, and so that just that feels like my savior when I read that account.

Shannon:

I love that. Yeah, it is a beautiful scene, but Simon is not looking on it as a beautiful scene. You know he's looking at it completely differently. So let's talk about the story Jesus told. Okay, so do you find it surprising that Jesus chose this moment to tell a story?

Tasha:

Well, no, in the sense that I've read enough of the words of Jesus and I've read enough of the Bible, that I know often that really is how he speaks. He speaks in stories and parables. Even when you know, shannon, that one third of the Bible is poetry, you think about how you read poetry. Poetry is kind of a feeling, it's a mood, it sets a scene, if you will, and so I think Jesus has always set the scene for us. I think he's good at not just giving direct answers, but he's good at moving us through word, pictures and stories and parables and experiences. Yes, because he's just a layered communicator, and so it's actually very consistent with who God is and who Jesus was when he walked the earth.

Shannon:

That's so good. Yeah, I completely agree. You know, I always think of stories as think of it like a little velvet pouch and it's got all these theological gems inside of it and the stories, what holds it together. You know, you can carry it with you, you can receive it and retain it and repeat it, and so Jesus is saying something really significant that they're going to turn over in their minds. You know he could have just overtly said you're a sinner, simon, her sins are forgiven, like he could have just been that overt and direct, but he didn't. And, shannon, do you?

Tasha:

know what, when you just said that, do you know what? I just thought he also could have been really snarky about it. I mean, you know, like when you read it in the context after the story, if you hadn't had the story of the two sinners there and it wasn't clear that Christ was trying to communicate something to where he would understand, it could have been used to really just shut him down. Like, well you know what? She came in here and poured out her flask and wiped my face, wipe my feet with her tears and her hair, and all you did for me was put this table and you haven't even given me the time of day. Like it could have been very scathing and very, almost provocative in nature towards him. You know, provocating in that sense. And yet I think what the story does is communicate that he really wants Simon to understand what is at stake here. He really wants Simon to understand that he too has been given a great forgiveness, that he needs that as well.

Shannon:

Opportunity.

Tasha:

His opportunity, and so I just think it's so beautiful that when God has the perfect opportunity to really like best someone, that's not what he takes his opportunity to do. He instead really wants to communicate effectively so that he can pierce the heart of even Simon.

Shannon:

I just love that I had never thought about what if you scooped out that story from this text? And he went directly, because he is a little bit provocative. I mean, he's using irony to call out Simon's sin. You know you've been super rude to me here.

Shannon:

Simon Like he calls it little sin, but you know this is very in their culture, hospitality is the most valued virtue and Simon has shown Jesus none of that. You know it'd be like it'd be like if you came to my door. I mean, I think highly of you, tasha, I think that you're such an honored, you would be such an honored guest in my home. And what if I didn't even come to the door, didn't offer you a drink, didn't talk to you, just ignored you? That's kind of what Simon has done here, right, and so, yeah, so he tells the story, which is what Jesus does, and I wonder if you know, like you said, he's more interested in inviting this sinner into being part of this beautiful story, the overarching story of the gospel, which is for all sinners who are forgiven, and he's more inviting Simon into that than nailing his sin to the wall. Right, right, yeah, exactly, I see that. So we've got this woman who's blubbering at Jesus' feet yeah, no-transcript. Simon is like looking down at her, like this is disgusting, like why is he letting her touch him, kiss him, whatever?

Shannon:

And if Jesus is simply wanting to explain that he could have told a one person story, he could have told a story about there's somebody who owes like $50,000 and then their creditor just forgave it and they just love that creditor. They're coming like with blubbery tears, like that would make sense. Instead, jesus tells a two person story. Like that's interesting to me. Jesus puts the prostitute and the Pharisee together in the same story, side by side. That's what he does here. Any thoughts on that? Like why he would put them together in the?

Tasha:

story. I think it's very much the playing field that he likes to operate on, which is that he's going to level it. I mean, I just think of Paul's letters, like so many times, but especially in Galatians, in the Paulian epistles in general, where Paul reiterates that God's heart, that the heart of Christ, is that there's neither June nor Greek, there's male nor female, slave nor free. There are. Time and time again, the gospel is going to contrast two big things and say but at the foot of the cross, that's the equalizer, we all come before God. I mean that verse that you said about the little girl at the store, you know where all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I mean he not only states that, but he illustrates it beautifully all throughout scripture and right here in Luke, chapter seven, yet again just contrasting that here you've got somebody who really was the best of the best, right, like the Pharisees really touted themselves on. They were the ones keeping the law the best. They were the ones that were the leaders, you know, in the temple and in the community and they were kind of the keepers of all the things. And if they're up here and she's way down here, you know, when you put Christ in the middle of that mix, what you realize is nope, we're all down here and it is he who has forgiven us and he is the one who is going to elevate us and we have unity with him and that's what gives us our worth and our value.

Tasha:

What was kind of surprising to me about this story, when you look at it so, of Jesus's possibly 33 years on earth give or take, but like when you look at what's chronicled in scripture, what we can actually see in the authority of scripture, we have bits or pieces of 26 days of his life, not even a whole month.

Tasha:

So the fact that this dinner with Simon the Pharisee and the chick who sinned, that we don't even really know, like, exactly what she did, the fact that that makes it as one of the things I think what is so astonishing to me is that Jesus had such a big ministry Like we think sometimes in.

Tasha:

I'm in vocational ministry and some days I just think I cannot get all that is on my plate done, like I have so much ministry to do. Well, I doubt any of us can really chalk up our ministry agenda to what Jesus had on his agenda during his short 33 years in his earthly ministry and yet he is taking the time to sit down with a Pharisee in a sinner and he is going to do that very personal ministry. I think it's also just so beautiful that we know this Pharisee's name, we know this woman's story and that, just again, it just affirms how Christ values people and who they are and where they are in their journey. And he did not ever forsake, though, the one for the 99. So I think the whole thing is just so beautiful and so consistent with the character of who Christ is.

Shannon:

So good, I agree. I see him elevating her Like she's the good example here in the room, because think about the story he's telling. There are two debtors. I just in my mind switched from denieria to $50,000 and $5,000. I don't know if it equals about that, but yeah, so one owed about $50,000, one owed about $5,000 and he forgives them both, and so like the one to one parallel is like who's the $50,000 debtor? He is, she is, but then the big question is well, who's the $5,000 debtor in the room?

Tasha:

Yeah, simon thinks she's the $50,000. I mean, that's the one that we all the obvious answer like. What's interesting is he knows that he might be being set up Like when he answers the question, because he hedges his bet a little bit, I suppose, whatever. What you have to wonder, though, is does he ever get it? Because the reality is he may be the $50,000 debtor.

Tasha:

I think we all read this. If you read this story plainly, it seems like she's the one that's the train wreck and he's the one. That's not that bad. But the reality is that it very well could be the other way around. They're probably both $50,000 debtors, you know, I mean, that's the reality. But she recognized it about herself. He didn't.

Shannon:

That's the main difference, that's exactly it.

Tasha:

That's the difference.

Shannon:

Yeah, that she knows she is a debtor. And he doesn't even think of himself. You know, jesus at the later says whoever has the great debt is gonna love more, but the one with a little tiny debt. And Jesus is saying like I see, simon, you just have the little debt. But then he goes on to notice, like you didn't give me a kiss when I came in, you didn't wash my feet, you didn't anoint my head with oil. I mean, in contrast to who this guest is, like this is the most valuable person in the universe. And he has just entered Simon's home and Simon has snubbed him.

Shannon:

I used to tell my kids, like you know, if you punch your friend at school, well that's gonna be bad. If you punch your teacher, like that's gonna be really bad. If you go punch the principal, I mean, so you've done the same wrong thing all three times. But it matters who you're offending. And so when we offend God, even though our sin is, it doesn't seem like we've done something worse. But because of the honor he deserves, our offense is far more, I guess, expensive.

Shannon:

You know we're talking debt here.

Shannon:

Like this is Simon has a great debt here in this story, and I think you know, there's one part of the story that doesn't really translate to us.

Shannon:

You know, in our culture, because I've never heard somebody say I'm really afraid I'm gonna go to jail because I have credit card debt, right, right, but in that culture, like it was pretty serious, right. I mean, there's this verse I found in Matthew 18, 25,. It says you know, it's another story Jesus is telling, but he's saying since he did not have the money to pay it back, the master commanded that he, his wife, his children and everything he had be sold to pay the debt. So that must have been a real life experience for them. Like, if you've got debt, your wife, your kids and everything you have could be sold to pay the debt. Like, and it didn't matter if you owed a little bit or a lot, it's just, the point is, if you can't pay it back, they're gonna take what you have as leverage, right well and just think about it more like, if you're looking at our salvation, if you were having to pay a debt that is affecting your whole future.

Tasha:

It's affecting whether or not you have freedom, whether you live free, or it's affecting whether or not you have been basically stopped in your tracks and you are imprisoned and your life is effectively over, and so there's even some spiritual implication in that that, by the forgiveness of that debt, he's offering her freedom. He's offering her life abundant, that she would not have otherwise had.

Shannon:

Yes, yeah, he's giving her a future. It's a beautiful story of a daughter of the kingdom, a king who accepts her kisses Like she's accepted, she has a future with him. And what I love is like Simon is being invited and it's a beautiful story. You know, it's like this story that it gets rid of all your perfectionism. She can't get rid of her own sin, it's too much, and she just comes in so she's received this forgiveness from Jesus. He accepts her kisses and Jesus is basically saying you too, simon, like you're invited into this story too, but first you have to see yourself as even that $5,000 debtor. Do you even see that? Do you see that your sin is so bad that you can't fix it Right? Like that's really the question that the story's posing. That's why it's a two-person story and Jesus is really comparing in the story. I think that's interesting. You know we often say, well, don't compare. You know we don't compare. Well, jesus is actually right there in front of them comparing.

Tasha:

I think what he's responding to Simon's comparison. Yes, because Simon, when we read that, simon is thinking to himself how can he be a prophet? He doesn't even recognize how bad she is. So he has already deemed that. Here I am, the standard like I'm up here. I thought Jesus was this great teacher prophet. I'm a little worried about him because he's not able to see what I can see and I'm up here and I value what I see here, and I see she is way down here, and so he's already stacked himself up in relation to the other two people in this story, christ and the sinful woman. And so I think you know once again, it is Jesus understanding what's going on in his mind and his heart ultimately, and switching the narrative, you know, switching the script on him and saying I'll tell you how the comparison goes. You're sitting here comparing yourself to her and you, the scales are tipping in your favor. Let me show you how the comparison actually shakes out in my perspective, that is so good.

Shannon:

He's comparing down to her and I love in the ESV, like the CSB which we just read, said if you were a prophet, he would know who and what kind of woman this is. In the ESV it says what sort of woman she is. Like she's that sort. Yeah, like I'm a different sort, she's that sort. But Jesus is basically saying what if that sort and your sort are the same thing? Like what if you two, Simon, have a debt that you cannot pay? And that's really the question for everyone who's ever walked this planet, because we're all born into Adam and we have this sin debt that we can't pay. Tasha, my son, was a camp counselor a couple of summers ago and he's a lifeguard, and so they have this swim test on Monday where the kids have to prove that they can swim, you know, and there's this little boy who is like actively drowning in front of my son.

Tasha:

Kate.

Shannon:

Like he's like, he's like bobbing under, you know, and then his come up, whatever. And so my son, kate, is giving him this life ring. He's like here, take the life ring. And the kid keeps pushing it away and he says, no, I can do it. I can do it, I want to pass the test. And Kate says you've already failed. Yes, you have failed. Take this life ring. He said he had to like, basically wrestle the kid, like come, you know, save him, like he's taught in, like our training. The kid didn't want to take the life ring. Yeah, because he thought he could save himself. I mean, that's Simon, that's all of us. We want to push our sin aside, we want to be like that little girl, like all of y'all have sinned, but we want to put ourselves a different sort than that sort and Jesus is like nope. Here's the scenario. You are in a desperate situation.

Tasha:

You're 100% right and I think that ties in so beautifully because you know, I know that you're big on combating the false narratives that we face in culture and really what you see there is that Simon has believed this false narrative. That I can be good on my own, like I've got this. When Jesus comes to his table, the narrative in his head is I'm doing pretty good, I know the law, I'm keeping the law pretty well, I'm respected. Here's the goal and I'm crushing it and I can do. I got this, yeah, and I'm interested to hear what Jesus has to say. But he didn't have a need. He felt that he was bringing towards Jesus.

Tasha:

And then you have this woman that walks in, and again, we don't know exactly what her sins are, but she's walking in and she has been living under this false narrative that I've got to take care of myself, I've got to rely on myself and take control of me. Nobody else is going to take control of me. Nobody else is going to. You know, I can't rely on anybody else. And so she's just spinning her wheels, likely in sinful ways, in sinful patterns that she probably feels stuck in. In fact, the emotion that pours out of her would tell you that she is stuck on the hamster wheel.

Tasha:

Yeah, she did not have a way out, yeah. And so both of them come in to Jesus with a false narrative. But one of them is willing to hand her over and exchange it for the truth. And I just, man, I pray, oh my goodness, I pray I am the woman that can hand it over, that can see my need and lay it before the foot of the cross. But I will tell you, shannon, I can relate to Simon too. I can relate to Simon so many times thinking look over, there, I'm at least better than yeah.

Shannon:

Better than what's her face. Yes, exactly, I love relating to the woman. I love seeing myself at that, as that broken woman. At his feet, he's receiving my kisses and, you know, in a room full of people that might look down on me, he's the one like exalting me and noticing my humility. Like that person I love to relate to. I think it's a little bit harder to see myself in Simon, but maybe a little more important, you know, to see myself like him. So I love that you brought up, like this whole false narrative thing that we talk about. Like you know, you're saying one of the false narratives is that I don't need forgiveness for my sin. The other false narrative is I have to find a way, you know, to take care of my sin.

Tasha:

It's all up to me. I've got to keep this thing going. Yes, yes.

Shannon:

So one is I'm capable, the other is I have to, but I can't. So basically the story, though, is we're all debtors who cannot pay Right, and what difference does it make when we don't live like that's true, you know? I mean, I think we've kind of just said it, but anything else you'd add to, like when we don't live, like if I don't live like it's true that I'm a debtor and I cannot pay, how does that come out in my life?

Tasha:

So I think, for women and I'm going to just speak personally for me, like when I was thinking about this and I was really, you know, because we knew we were going to talk about this, and so I was really kind of praying through this I was thinking, okay, where am I feeling conviction? What is it? My friend, carol Saleigh, that used to be in our ministry. She always used to ask this question is there a spiritual principle that I need to apply to my life in this story? And so that was kind of the lens in which I'm looking at the story is there a spiritual principle? And where I got caught up was when Simon is thinking to himself, he entertains this thought of I've got a doubt about Jesus, like I am questioning something about Jesus, and that is really what tips this whole thing off right. Yep, like that's what Jesus responds to. It's why we end up getting the story of the two debtors, because Simon has entertained a thought of doubt towards Christ. Right, and I just thought I need to be more careful with my thoughts, because the reality is that is the seed, that is the breeding ground for our actions. So you know, even though we're not told what the thought life of this sinful woman is what we can know, is that probably, whatever way in which she has sinned, it started here. I'm going to make the choice to sin in this way, to do this. So it starts here.

Tasha:

And I just thought to myself you know, like Jesus heard his thoughts, he's sitting there at the table. Now that makes sense to us because we're like, okay, yeah, well, we know Jesus can hear our thoughts, but he was sitting across from Simon, so they were just. That was like a proximity thing, right? No, we who are in Christ, like our thoughts, they are bare before him and so, but do I live like that, like if I really believed that that same Jesus who heard Simon's thoughts, here's my thoughts. Do I protect my mind, the narratives in my head, the thoughts that I think? Do I protect those like I really believe that's true? I just think of that verse that says finally, brothers and sisters, whatever's true, whatever's honorable, whatever's just, whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's commendable, there's any moral excellence, and if there's anything praiseworthy, dwell on those things. That's in Philippians 4-8. And I just think I don't. Sometimes live like this is laid bare before my savior.

Shannon:

And especially my thoughts about other people. Because if you, if you look at those lists, whatever's true, whatever's noble, like, if you back up the context he's saying, I plead with Lydia, I plead with Centicke to agree with one other for the sake of the gospel, like these two gospel partners, and they're thinking bad things about each other. And that list, those are things that you would say not about like, not about lovely scenery, but about lovely character qualities like each of those, like whatever's noble in her character, whatever's lovely in her life, like. Think about those things, make lists of those things about her and not be looking at each other with just this disgust, right, yes, yes, that's what I see in Simon is just this disgust, like, ooh, she's touching him, ew, why is he not pushing her away? If he was a prophet he'd know she's that sort, you know.

Shannon:

And there's this quote from Ed Stetzer where he says we can't communicate disgust, basically, without saying something about ourselves, like we're elevated, they're the horrible sinner and we're the noble, righteous one. You know he's doing both in that same story, but I love that you pinpointed that you know his thoughts are disgusted with this other person, but also that Jesus, jesus might not actually know how bad she is. I mean, sometimes I do doubt, like Lord, why would you exonerate that person? Or why would you give them, like, don't you see, don't you know how bad their sin is? Yes, like the way I do. Yes, like I'm astounding, you know? Yeah, and I think what that says is oh, I think I'm back to thinking of myself as not someone who has a debt.

Tasha:

No, you're exactly right, there's a. I read a devotional book one year that I'd gotten. We had a ministry called Walk Through the Bible, come to Our Church and they gave everybody these devotionals. And this particular devotional book was called Worship the King and it's written by Chris Tigreen.

Tasha:

There is something that has stood out, one little thing that he said in that book and has stood out to me, and I have probably quoted it a hundred times. But he says in a world we tend to divide between us and them, we need to remember that them always has the potential to be us. And I have just thought that was so good. And once again, when I was reading this story in scripture, I just this account I don't like to call them stories this account in the script, this very real, real and accurate historical piece of literature, I was just thinking, like that Pharisee didn't ever see her, that sinful woman, as somebody who could be us. He saw her as that sort. And I just think how often we tend to fall into those same categories of us and them and us and them. And I think we see in this parable, in this story, that Jesus does not look down and see them as us and them. That's not how he saw the Pharisee and it's not how he saw the woman.

Shannon:

Yeah he puts them side by side in the same story and basically, like you mentioned, we don't know how Simon responds. But the only way that he's going to be part of this story is if he sees that that sort and his sort are the same sort. You know, that's the only way to be part of the story. Yeah, you may have more debt than her, but you also cannot pay Simon. And so, like how can we live? Like it's true that that sort and this sort were the same sort?

Tasha:

I think it's asking to have God's eyes to see. I mean, there's, what you really see in the Pharisee is a blind spot. Yes, they never even entertained that she could possibly be part of, you know, the kingdom of God. I had the sweetest text. My oldest daughter is 26. She and her husband live in Austin, texas. They have just finished a year long assignment, if you will, in a apartment complex in Austin that was very Indian based and so they were trying to assimilate into that culture and they were just trying to be a be a light in that place and everything. And so the other day she texted me and she said she said, mom, I have the coolest story to share.

Tasha:

My friend and I went prayer walking in an area that has a lot of Afghan refugees in our city and she said, as I was walking through there, I realized I don't really have much sympathy for these people, like I don't really relate to them, I don't, I don't have like a big connection to them. And she said so my friend and I prayed and we asked God, would you give us eyes to see their suffering? Would you help us understand their suffering, help us connect to them so that we can pray more accurately. And she said, mom, 20 minutes later, while we are still on that walk, we encountered a young man and we stopped and said how can we pray for you? And he broke down and said I lost my father last night and I'm grieving and I'm so upset. And she said, literally within 20 minutes, when we asked God for eyes to see the suffering of the people around us, he brought a suffering person right in front of us.

Tasha:

And I just think we sometimes forfeit so many things because we pray about me, me, me, the things I've got on, instead of saying let me see you, you, you, let me see your assignments, let me see who you have chosen to put in my path, because God will answer those prayers. You know he is going to be faithful. That is the work he's called us to do, and so I think it can be as simple, shannon, as just are. We asking God would you give us eyes to see the people that that need you around us? Would we not walk right past them? Would you give us a heart to connect them and introduce them to you? I think you just have to pray that and he will give you that.

Shannon:

Yeah, like what if Simon had said, god, please help me to see this woman the way that you see her? You know he would have opened his eyes Like this is a beautiful story here. I love that story of your daughter and this opportunity. So like part of living, like it's true, is seeing other people the way that Jesus sees them, mm hmm, Like they're the same sort as me.

Shannon:

You're right, it's. If there is a theme in the Bible, it's unity, like it's all these different types of people that sort that sort, that sort all in one body. Right, that's what we're called to in Jesus. But I think, yes, living like it's true also has to do with seeing myself. I was just talking with a friend this weekend about how hard it is to be vulnerable and let other people know that I'm that sort.

Shannon:

You know, I had a situation with one of my kids where and I mean I have confessed this publicly before, but I was a really angry, controlling mom. My first book is called Control Girl and that is my part of it, is my story, and you know there were repercussions. You know there was fallout in the relationship with my kids. Praise God, god is mending those and I'm enjoying the relationship with my kids more than I ever had.

Shannon:

But there's this moment recently where one of them was referring back to something I had done in an angry rage or maybe like several things. He was referring to it as like that time in my life when I had been this angry mom, yeah, and he was telling me about someone he had run into and he's like, oh, that's the one that you know. Remember, when you were all that way, I confided in this guy and he really helped me through that. I was like, oh my goodness, like Tasha that was.

Shannon:

That was humbling, like thinking about what my son would have said about me and how that you know this is a grown up and you know he's a Godly man and like, oh my gosh, what did he think of me and what? And it was all a very like, very much part of God's taking care of my son and there was nothing in what he shared that was. I mean, if I'm just a sinner like everybody else, there's no problem with what happened there. The only problem is when I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not that sort like, please don't paint me as that sort.

Tasha:

Yeah, no, and I totally get it.

Shannon:

I think there's just such a tendency that we have to pull back and not want anybody to know that we too have sinned. And please don't think poorly of my kids, like if my kids aren't walking with the Lord or, if you know, like anything that could reflect badly on me, like something I don't know in my work or in my family.

Shannon:

My marriage is suffering, like you know we're just on high alert that anyone would know that we too are that sort that we could have caused any of our own problems. Do you see that too?

Tasha:

Yeah, no, you're exactly right, but I think, like how beautiful, because those type of moments shape us, like you get to see the redemption that is now taking place, and I think you had a moment, honestly, that probably feels very much like that simple woman that we encounter right here in Luke seven, like you get the gravity of what was done. You would give anything to go back and change that Totally, I would, but yet praise God. That's not who you are, that's not where you are. You know that feels like another person now and that's the beauty of what God offers us through salvation in Christ. It is for freedom that he set us free. It is for freedom, yeah, and that's what you get to experience.

Shannon:

That's so true. There's this book that I love called the Gospel Primer, by Milton Vincent, and he just goes through the gospel, just little bite-sized pieces of the gospel, and there's this one part called Exposed by the Cross, and he talks about how, like if I wanted others to think highly of me, I would conceal the fact that a shameful slaughter of the perfect Son of God was required that I might be saved. But when I stand at the foot of the cross and I'm seen by others under the light of the cross, I am left uncomfortably exposed before their eyes. Indeed, the most humiliating gossip that could ever be whispered about me is blared from Golgotha's Hill and my self-righteous reputation is left in ruins in the wake of its revelations.

Shannon:

I just like that it's beautiful, that's. I mean I want to be just exposed by the cross. Like I wanna be the kind of woman that doesn't have to say, like don't say those bad things about me. Like I wanna be the kind of woman that's like, yeah, my sin was that bad, that hard, that hurtful, I'm so sorry you had to be on the other side of it and I'm so grateful for the cross. Like that's what I see in this one and that's what I don't see in Simon, like living like it's true that we're both debtors who cannot pay. It's like, how do I, how am I gonna treat your sin and how am I gonna treat my sin? Amen, amen. Anything else, tasha, that you wanna add?

Tasha:

Oh, shannon, I've just so enjoyed this. I just think you know it never surprises me that we can open up God's word and find commonality and community and fellowship and admonition and encouragement and all the things I mean. God's word really is just beautiful and so powerful and I pray that your listeners have just experienced that with us today.

Shannon:

Well, I certainly have. Thank you so much for all that you've shared.

Tasha:

Yeah, so good to be here.

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Shannon Popkin

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