An Astonishing Reconciliation After Wicked Betrayal {Jodie Niznik}

Twenty years after a wicked betrayal, the tables have turned, and Joseph holds the power over his brothers. So he chooses to... reconcile? This story helps us consider God's sovereignty, the wicked choices of people, and how the two can coexist in the same story. Join me for this interesting conversation with author, speaker, and podcaster, Jodie Niznik.

Guest: Jodie Niznik

Bible Passage: Joseph Provides for His Brothers and Family - Genesis 45:1-8

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Mentioned Resources

• 3 Ways Comparison Derails Us - Shannon's Episode on the So Much More Podcast with Jodie
• Jesus Under Arrest, Yet in Complete Control {Lindsay Schott} - Lindsay Schott's Episode on Live Like It's True Podcast with Shannon
• Woman Who Identified the Wrong Man as Criminal - Story Mentioned by Shannon
• The Sound of Freedom Movie
• "Unpacking Forgiveness" by Chris Brauns
• Trust: A Study of Joseph for Persevering Through Life’s Challenges by Jodie Niznik

Jodie Niznik is a seminary-trained lover of God’s Word who has served in vocational ministry for over twelve years. She helps people create space for God in their lives through her Scripture meditation podcast and equips them to take another step with Jesus through her Real People, Real Faith Bible studies and teaching. 

Connect with Jodie:

Website: http://www.jodieniznik.com/

Instagram: creatingspaceforgod

Podcast: So Much More: Creating Space for God

Live Like It's True is part of the Resound Podcast Network. For more gospel centered resources visit ResoundMedia.cc .

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My Live Like It's True workbook will help you get the most out of your study of the narrative sections of your Bible. It includes my False Narrative Watchlist, my True Story Worksheet, my Story Elements Bookmark and more.

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Learn more at ShannonPopkin.com.

Chapters

• 0:00 Recognizing Someone from Your Past
• 6:20 A Character Test for Joseph's Brothers
• 10:42 Joseph Can't Control His Emotions
• 21:32 Glimpses of Jesus in Joseph's Story
• 26:07 Joseph saw God's Sovereignty
• 35:22 The Power of Forgiveness and Reconciliation
• 35:44 Forgiveness is Like a Wrapped Gift
• 42:10 Redemption, Even when there's Pain

Transcript

Shannon: 0:51

Jodi Niznik, welcome to Live.

Jodie: 0:53

Like it's True. Hi Shannon, it's so fun to be with you today.

Shannon: 0:57

It is so fun. We got to meet maybe a year ago at a retreat and you had me as a guest on your podcast which is the so Much More podcast. We discussed humility right, yes, and Philippians too.

Jodie: 1:13

Yes, we did the ultimate passage about humility, about Christ humbling himself.

Shannon: 1:18

That was such a great conversation. We'll link to it in case anybody wants to go over and listen to that one. But let me just give our listeners your bio. You are a seminary trained lover of God's Word who has served in the vocational ministry for over 12 years. You help people create space for God in their lives through your scripture meditation podcast and you equip them to take another step with Jesus through your real people, real faith, bible studies and teaching. You can find all this stuff at jodiniznikcom, but the book that we're going to kind of take some material from and discuss today is Trust a Study of Joseph for Persevering Through Life's Challenges. When did that one come out, jodi? I think it was 2021, 2022.

Shannon: 1:59

Somewhere around the haze of COVID.

Jodie: 2:02

Exactly. It was like what was happening then Our lives were all a mess.

Shannon: 2:07

Yes, and that is part of how many book series with Kreekel.

Jodie: 2:10

There's four books in the series Okay, or Bible studies. Technically it is not a book. I make you do part of the work. I just try to ask good questions. You know all about that, Shannon. I'm learning.

Shannon: 2:23

It's harder than you might think writing a Bible study because you don't want to be just teacherly and give—there's all this great stuff to find, but you don't want to give away all the answers.

Shannon: 2:33

Nor do you want to ask questions that are too hard. So it's like it's really hard to find a balance. Yeah, my first traditional Bible study is coming out next year, called Shaped by God's Promises, and you and I have talked a little bit about that one. That is, on the life of Sarah. But I'm just so grateful that you've spent years of your life dedicated to helping women open the Bible together, which is just one of my passions as well.

Jodie: 2:57

Yeah, mine too.

Shannon: 2:57

As we look at this story of Joseph, I just—I'm curious, Jody, do you ever have one of those moments where you see someone that you think you used to know them, but you can't quite put it together? Have you had that before?

Jodie: 3:09

I actually have that more than I want to confess, if I'm being totally honest, you're going public here again, I know.

Jodie: 3:16

I'm like, if anybody sees me with my game face on. Yeah, I wonder sometimes when I meet people, because I used to work on the staff of a large church and I would do some Sunday morning service, hosting welcoming people, things like that. So a lot of people recognized me, even if I didn't fully know them. So I kind of had to get to this place where I was just always like, act like you know everybody. Yeah, maybe that's not terrible because you're more friendly to people that you think you know and so I look them in the eyes a little bit more. That's so curious, but I'm terrible with names and, yes, I have that experience a lot.

Shannon: 3:55

Yeah, I do too. I'm more than I'd like to admit. I also like try to play along, but it'll be like hi, oh hi, you were our speaker at whatever. And I'll be like oh yeah, you know I don't always remember as much as I would like to, but I'll have to tell you this I just recently went to speak in Milwaukee at the church where Ken and I first met. So this goes back. I mean, we've been married 27 years and we met there before we were married and lived our first couple of years of marriage there. But it's been a while.

Shannon: 4:24

I was a teacher there and there were probably a half dozen times over the course of that event where I'm looking in the eyes of someone and I'm like you are, allison, I know you. I can't remember how I know you, but I know I know you. You know, like there's just this memory somewhere back there. A couple of times we couldn't remember how we knew each other, whether it was at church or at the school or whatever. But it was just fun to reconnect with people. And in this story we're going to have family members who have been apart for about how many years? Jodi, a little over 20.

Jodie: 4:56

A little over 20. The way I've counted it is 22 years.

Shannon: 5:00

Okay, and if I were to go back 22 years and look at photos of myself and imagine someone hadn't seen me since then, I can imagine that would take them a moment to remember me. And you know, look into my eyes like, oh wait a minute, who are you? And Joseph, our main character of our story here he probably looks different because he's been assimilated into Egyptian culture, right? Do you know what they would have like? What he had no beard?

Jodie: 5:26

or yes, he would have been clean shaven. He probably was dressed like an Egyptian. He was talking in Egyptian.

Jodie: 5:34

Yeah that's right and so because it says in the story that they were using an interpreter. That was one of the reasons why they did not know it was him. Oh right, you know. And he was really high up, he was second to Pharaoh at this point. So there's a chance that he was wearing the whole garb that we've seen right Pictures of, and so he could have had his head covered One of those like snake things on his head, or it's hard to say. Sure, but they definitely didn't recognize him. I mean, he looked different. Plus, he was 17 when they last saw him, so he was a young boy still, and now he's 22 years later, so 39. Yeah, close to 40.

Shannon: 6:16

So yeah, you look a little different from 17 to almost 40. That's quite a transition. So let me just catch us up here in this story. So we're talking about when Joseph was about 17 years old. His brothers sold him into slavery and he was brought into Egypt. Why did they sell him? Well, they were jealous of him because there were two wives and there were concubines too, but Joseph's mom was the favorite, and so all the other brothers were kind of jealous of him. His dad had shown favoritism, and so they sold him and they lied to their dad about it. They told their dad that he was eaten by a wild animal.

Shannon: 6:52

And so at this point, 20 years later, joseph has risen to power, like we said, he's second in command under Pharaoh, and his brothers are experiencing famine and have come to him looking for some food and wanting to buy grain from him. It's the only place you can get grain. And so Joseph recognizes them and does not reveal himself at the beginning, and at this point he's just put them to a test. So he wants to see if they are still just as jealous of him. And then there's another brother, benjamin, and just as callous, you know, like that's so callous to not tell their dad that he was alive, and so making their dad go through grief for 20 years. Can you imagine? That's horrible.

Shannon: 7:35

And so what he does? He kind of designs this text. He hides a silver cup in Benjamin's bag and then he sets up this thing where it's found and they are being held accountable. And so then what happens is Judah, the brother who at first sold him into slavery, steps up and says no, no, no, no, you're not taking Benjamin, you're not taking the favorite little brother. I will be the one that you have to take because we cannot put our dad through this again. So it's like this reversal. He's just revealed that these brothers are no longer these jealous, callous, hard-hearted people who, 20 years ago, sold their brother into slavery. There has been a transformation. So this is where we're picking up the story. You just have to have that backdrop right to be able to understand what's going on here. This has a lot of drama and emotion in it.

Jodie: 8:23

I love this kind of story.

Shannon: 8:25

So, jodi, can you just kick us off and read Genesis 45.1 through 3?

Jodie: 8:31

Yeah, it says. Then Joseph could no longer control himself before all his attendants and he cried out have everyone leave my presence. So there was no one with Joseph when he made himself known to his brothers and he wept so loudly that the Egyptians heard him and Pharaoh's household heard about it. Joseph said to his brothers I am Joseph, is my father still living? But his brothers were not able to answer him because they were terrified at his presence.

Shannon: 9:04

You can only imagine that they were. Yeah, yeah, this is storytelling at its best, jodi, I've heard it said that the story of Joseph is the most intricate, sophisticated storytelling in all of ancient literature. It's got these chastric structures. We won't get into all that, but it's told very, very well. And so what makes this a good story? This part of it. What do you see here?

Jodie: 9:26

Well, I think, like you said, this is just kind of this pinnacle moment where we've been observing Joseph go through his life just getting totally ripped away from him when he was 17 years old. I mean, he was born into a wealthy family, like you said, and he was the favorite son, so chances are his life was mapped out and it was going to be a pretty good life for that day and age, and then everything gets ripped away from him and it's not just a small change, it's a drastic change. I mean, he's thrown into slavery, he's falsely accused, he's put into prison and he is having to live with dealing with what his brothers have done to him. And so they've come and now they have need and they stand before him and they've asked for grain. And this is actually the second time that they've come and they've asked for grain. And, like you said, he did this test to really test their character. Have they changed at all? Are they different? And he tested them earlier as well. So he goes through this series of tests because he wants to know are you the same people? Because you were pretty terrible when I was 17 years old, you know. We can look at that beginning of the story and go. Well, he was pretty immature himself, but nobody deserves what happened to Joseph.

Jodie: 10:40

So all of this emotion is driving toward this moment when he finally cannot control it anymore. And it says he wept so loudly and that word, like he wailed. It's like this guttural cry, it is not like I mean, it is wailing, emotive, and you can only imagine what is contained in that weeping. And as I've thought about it, I think there's grief and there's loss and there's sadness and there's forgiveness. I mean there's just so many emotions because you know we cry all of these different kinds of tears and when we've been in these kind of places where we cannot control it anymore, I think there's just so much emotion coming out of him and it's loud.

Jodie: 12:29

And I imagine it was shocking to his brothers as they're watching him because they still don't know it's him Right. And here's this official who's this kind of dignitary and fair and helpful. It's a little bit humorous because they're like whoa, can you imagine? You know, you're like OK, it's like they're standing with the vice president of the United States or Supreme Court judge and you're asking for help, you're expecting a judgment, and then you see all this crazy emotion come out of them and so, yeah, it's stunning on that level. And then when he's able to collect himself enough and he says who he is and he speaks to them In their native language, they know it's him and then they're terrified.

Shannon: 13:11

Yes, before we go there, though, I want to dig into this wailing a little bit more, because I think we got to just feel the emotion there. This is a storytelling technique too, where we've got these extras in the scene as we're reading the Bible. It is narrative, and so we need to read it as narrative Well, the sections that are narrative and so we have to pay attention to these extras. There's no wasted ink in the Bible. It says Joseph could not control himself before all those who stood by him. Who are these people? Well, these are his attendants standing by. So he starts crying. That's the guttural whale.

Jodie: 13:43

No, he has everybody leave. So everyone's there and he says tell everyone to leave. So it's just him and his brother that are in the room. But he weeps so loudly that the Egyptians heard him and Pharaoh's household heard about it. So the people here, they're like what's going?

Shannon: 14:00

on in there. Yeah, rather than just saying, joseph wept really loudly like that's a telling, this is a show. He wept so loud that he all these people he just sent out of the room, they could hear it. The whole household could hear it. That's how loud, like that's this guttural whaling, like what is going on? Yeah, this is high drama here it is. If we were to pick the movie soundtrack music here, it would be violins. I mean, this would be a lot of just swelling emotion here. And so then you're exactly right, after this breaking loose of emotion, that's when he turns to his brothers and says in their own language I love that you pointed that out, because he's not going to talk in Egyptian there, he's talking to them. I am Joseph. The shock of it all, the unexpected whaling, and then the reveal, like I'll bet they were the. You know, like those moments you're stuttering, you cannot speak, don't you think the scene had to have just been?

Jodie: 15:04

unbelievable, I think it was. And the other thing, too, is scriptures building up to this point, because we see that this is the third time that he actually weeps. So back in the first visit this is back in chapter 42, he has to leave their presence and he weeps privately. And then in their second visit, before he does this test with Benjamin, he has to pull away and he weeps again, and so it is building and building and building, and so, right, like if we were watching the movie of this, we would be feeling all of this emotion and we'd be seeing it in him, because we know that he has been going through this incredibly emotive yeah, and it's almost like soul crushing experience seeing his brothers and having to reconcile. Now, what am I going to do?

Shannon: 15:54

Yes, and the moment is thick with tension over that, because he is the one with all of the power and they are the ones with all of the guilt. And he has just revealed himself to them and it says they were dismayed at his presence. I mean, that's an understatement. They are peeing their pants. They are like what is going to happen next? What is he going to do with them?

Shannon: 16:17

And in the dialogue earlier we know that they felt guilty about Joseph. They've mentioned him to themselves. You know Joseph over here. They don't know he can understand them. So they felt this general sense of guilt. But now they're facing the one that they hurt. That's sort of a moment when you've hurt somebody else and you've cost them, whether it's like you got a divorce and you're facing your kids, or you were drunk driving and you face the person that you've hurt, you stole money, whatever. It is like that moment when you know that you are the perpetrator, you know you are the one who's wrong and you're facing the person who's been hurt by you. This is an out of control situation. No-transcript. Jodi, I've had those moments where I'm facing somebody that I know I've hurt. Have you had those moments?

Jodie: 17:12

Yeah, when you feel a little bit caught and nothing thankfully, like what he's done, but you know you've lied or you've done something because you were trying to cover for yourself. You know that's what they did. They made a horrible decision and then they proceeded to try and cover for themselves for 22 years. Yeah, so they lied to their father. They made a pact with each other to not break the silence and so they just carried this terrible guilt around and all of a sudden it's exposed and they're caught red-handed and they know it's all coming out.

Shannon: 17:46

Right, isn't that like God to not let us endure with this burden? Like he gives us these opportunities, he gives us these moments. I mean, I've heard story after story. I heard about a man who had been hurt by another man in business really badly, like betrayed, and he just happened to run into him in another town a decade or so later and it was like huh, you know, god ordains these moments. Like the brothers probably thought they would never see Joseph again, right, well, they thought maybe he was dead.

Jodie: 18:19

Yeah, they had no idea.

Shannon: 18:21

But look how God ordains this meeting. He does that. He gives us these opportunities because our God is a God of reconciliation, and reconciliation does not happen unless we first of all own what we have done wrong. And there has to be repentance and forgiveness, like those are the two ingredients of reconciliation. We've got that moment. I mean here it is.

Shannon: 18:42

It's like broken open before us All of this guilt, the shame, the wounds, the agony that Joseph has experienced. And it's just I am Joseph and is my father still alive? And this word for father, it's like there's an idiom there. It's like is daddy still alive? Is daddy still alive? Because they've talked about their father's, his health is failing. And it's just like is dad still alive? Like it's this oh, be honest with me, yeah, he doesn't know for sure. It's just interesting to me that those are the first two things that come out of his mouth. I'm Joseph, is my father still alive? They can't answer him. And again the tension in the room is what is Joseph going to do? So can you read us that next section, jody four through eight. We're in again, genesis 45.

Jodie: 19:29

So then Joseph said to his brothers come close to me. When they had done so, he said I am your brother Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt. And now do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you.

Jodie: 19:47

For two years now, there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will be no plowing or reaping, but God sent me ahead of you to preserve you as a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt.

Shannon: 20:13

So we've got this moment of tension. What's he going to do? Then? He calls his brothers come near, please. Can you imagine how they were trembling? What's surprising there? Do you think it is surprising that he wanted them to come here?

Jodie: 20:25

Yeah, you know. What's surprising to me is that three times he says it wasn't you, it was God. God sent me here, god sent me here, god sent me here. That's stunning to be able to get to that place where you can see the worst circumstances that have happened to you, the worst pain that someone has tried to inflict upon you. God has indeed used it for good, which he tells us he does in Romans, chapter eight. He works all things for good. Joseph is living that out for us right now when he says God allowed it and, more than that, god sent me ahead.

Shannon: 21:01

Those are both action verbs you sold me, god sent me, yeah. And it's like how can they both be true? You know you did this, god did this, but somehow in the scriptures that's what we see. We see that the two are compatible. Somebody does something really horrible, yeah, god does something really good, and there's just this juxtaposition of both of them. It's not something that we can totally figure out, but somehow Joseph firmly believes this. Yeah, you sold me, god sent me.

Jodie: 21:32

Well, and it's interesting because right here, in this moment, we see the Christ story, because Joseph's life was sacrificed for the good of many. And that's exactly what Jesus does, you know, he lays down his life for the good of all of us. Joseph had to surrender his life, whether he wanted to or not. Now Jesus went willingly, Joseph was thrust into it. Anytime you make a Jesus comparison, they're always going to fall short. But we see these glimmers of the Christ story reflected right here, and this is the character of God, that sometimes hard things happen. For one, because many are impacted and at this moment many lives are saved. Otherwise they would have all starved, they would have all died excruciating deaths, including Joseph.

Shannon: 22:20

He would have died and by God's providence, he preserves his people Like they don't die out, which is according to his promises, like we can't forget that God has promised that he will make of Abraham a great nation. That's right.

Shannon: 22:33

And from that nation will come this promised one, you know, eventually. So the next one is contingent on Joseph living and this family living and the nation surviving this famine. And so God is keeping his promises. Even though Joseph was betrayed and he was crushed, and it was hard and it was he had to persevere Again, like you just said. We see it in Jesus' story too. He too was betrayed this time by Judas.

Shannon: 22:58

Again, this is all God working out his sovereign providence for the sake of his people. Again, this is another installment of God keeping his promises. He promised that one would come and he would be crushed, but so that we could live, so that we don't have to go into death knowing that's the end.

Jodie: 23:15

Yeah.

Shannon: 23:15

There's another story for us it's not famine. For us it's sin, like sin has the power to destroy us, to annihilate us, to send us into eternity with no hope, and yet, because of Jesus' death in the cross, it's so incredible to see how God puts these stories, like he's weaving together these stories of real life, people and their situation, giving us glimpses of the cross. You know this overarching narrative of the whole Bible. These glimpses of Jesus in the Old Testament are just so intriguing they are.

Jodie: 23:45

You know and I think about Joseph and he is not Jesus, obviously. So I think what God did is because the brothers, the act that they did against Joseph, was evil and it was sinful, and I do believe God could have sent Joseph ahead a different way. Yeah, I do believe there probably could have been a different story told, but what I love about this is it reminds us that even when people do evil against us, and even when it is terrible because I know we have had terrible things done to us because we live in a sinful, hurting, broken world and so when people hurt us, even the way that Joseph has been hurt, our life is not ruined by that, it is not over because of that, and God can do this beautiful restoration work with our lives and he can turn it around to the place that we could even say well, god sent me here it's a nuanced word, right.

Jodie: 25:17

Did he actually make it happen? Did he allow it to happen, or does he carry us through it no matter what, and that's challenging.

Shannon: 25:24

I mean, it's an act of God sent me here. That's something to grapple with. But I agree, this story of the brothers is evil and you know, I see, one of the high tension in the story is where they're not sure what he's going to do. He says come near to me please. And he doesn't wipe them out right, he doesn't exert his power, he doesn't say come near to me, and all of you are going to face your death because of what you did to me. He could have, he had that power. He absolutely could have, and so could Jesus have. Jesus did not have to go to that cross. He did not have to face that suffering because he was God.

Shannon: 25:57

There's that moment in the episode I did with Lindsay Schott in the Easter series. I mean the moment where Jesus says I am he. They're like who are you looking for? Oh, jesus of Nazareth, I am he. When he says that all the soldiers fall back on each other Like all this clanking of armor. That's his power. He didn't have to go to any cross. With three words, he can knock over an army of soldiers and yet he submitted himself to this crushing because that's what the father had intended for him. In the same sense.

Shannon: 26:28

Joseph sees God's sovereignty. Jesus saw God's sovereignty and submitted himself. Both of them, like Joseph, truly is a picture of Christ in this way, even the fact that he's like come near to me, please. He's almost like comforting his brothers. I wonder if there's some parallels in the way that Jesus talked to his disciples after they betrayed him Like Peter. It's different with Judas, but Peter also betrayed Christ. You know, I don't even know you, I don't even know you. I mean, he gives them these three opportunities to turn that around. Like Peter, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? And so he redeems it. I see the story of redemption here.

Jodie: 27:03

Yeah, and I think it's such a good reminder because we may be faced with a moment where we could take retributive action, yes, against our enemies, and there are times when I do think that's appropriate. You know, god is also a God of justice, I agree. But what is the proper justice versus? You know, where are we punishing people because it makes us feel better, and I think that's the difference, you know, and you have to work that out with the Lord. But I think Joseph here, he had this moment where he is powerful At his word. They could have been tortured, thrown in prison, killed. I mean, it could have been very bad for them. They had every right to be terrified. Yeah, that was an appropriate response, knowing what they'd done and who. Joseph now was Right, but he doesn't. Instead, he extends forgiveness.

Shannon: 27:52

I agree there are moments we should hold people accountable, especially if they're not repentant. We should avail ourselves of our legal system and what the law provides. But I'm telling you, the moments that are most moving in recent history and in the Bible are those moments when somebody deserves one thing and they get grace instead. I remember watching this story of a woman who she was white and she had identified a black man Because of her racial bias. She identified the wrong person and was very convinced she had identified the one who. I believe it was a rape. She identified the wrong man. Then, years later, they had DNA. He was exonerated. He was innocent. There's this moment where she meets with him and she tells him I am so sorry and he forgives her. It is just like what she deserved. She was wrong. She cost him so much.

Shannon: 28:47

I'll see if I can link to that story here in our show notes. It was just so moving. These moments when somebody has done wrong, it's horrible, jodi, when I'm the one. I have moments in my life where I look back. I am the one. I was so wrong. I've hurt somebody else, I've hurt my family members with what I've said, I've betrayed people. I've done stuff that keeps me up at night, when they can look me in the eye and say here's what you deserve, but I'm going to give you grace anyway. It's such a higher, more beautiful story. I'd see that here, joseph, the sovereignty aside, just the fact that he's even able to have a conversation. He's looking for redemption he's looking for. Have you guys changed, instead of just assuming they haven't?

Jodie: 29:30

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we see all through Joseph's story is that his faith in God does not waver. There's this beautiful moment when Joseph is in prison and the scripture says the Lord was with him and showed him kindness and granted him favor in the eyes of the prison warden. And it's such an interesting moment for me because I think, even in this terrible circumstance now he's in an Egyptian prison, he's a slave in prison. I don't know how much worse it could get yeah, and it says that the Lord was with him and showed him kindness, and so I think Joseph just always knew God is with me and there will be another side to this, and so this is the circumstance I'm in, so I can choose to live in it or I can choose to wither away and die and let the circumstance take me.

Shannon: 30:22

He wasn't defined by his position in life, Whether he was in the prison or ruling. You really clung to God's promises, knowing that, God, I don't know what you're going to do here. I don't understand what's happening, but I know the promises that you have given to me and my family, and I think that's what we have to do too, Jodi. As we look at these horrible things that are happening in our lives, things where people have done wrong and they've cost us, we have to look for that higher story, that overarching purpose that the narrative that we are part of, where there is redemption, where God is doing things. Here's one of the false narratives I see in this story. There are people who say if God lets horrible things happen to me, he must not love me. Joseph, I don't see him saying that right.

Jodie: 31:09

No.

Shannon: 31:09

You sold me. God sent me. He sees this higher calling, he's willing to look beyond the circumstances and you and I can look back at the cross. So if we ever are tempted to say God never allows his people to go through hardship or suffering, well, look at the cross. He let his very own son be crushed because of this higher purpose, higher story, higher calling, and it's a redemptive story.

Jodie: 31:33

Yeah, I mean, I think it's the testimony that God has not forgotten us. Yes, I think we feel overlooked sometimes, and it is painful to go through hard circumstances, but God is there, even in the darkest. The dark is not dark to him. He is with us in the valley. Yeah, it's not, even though I live in the valley, even though that's where my life ends in the valley, it is no, we are moving through and so we are not forgotten. Like you said, I think that is a false narrative, that if bad things happen to me, god doesn't love me or he doesn't care about me, or I finally did it this time and now he's really mad at me and I'm being punished.

Shannon: 32:12

Let's look at that one because I think sometimes we think it's too far gone. There is no hope for this story. Whether you've murdered someone like look at the Bible, some of our biggest authors in the Bible are people who murdered. Moses was a murderer and so was Paul, right David and David yeah, you know murder we would think that's pretty big sin. Or adultery We've got adulterers in our story, david again. These things where we look at and think my life is over, the story's over for me. No, that's a false narrative. That's what our enemy would like us to believe. I think the truth is reconciliation is possible. That's the true narrative, because look at the story Brothers who sold their brother into slavery and we're talking slavery here. I just went to see the Sound of Freedom. Have you seen that movie? I want everyone to go see it.

Jodie: 32:59

Yeah, I've heard it's amazing.

Shannon: 33:01

It's based on a true story of I think it's a federal agent who goes after some sex trafficking victims to rescue them and it's just.

Shannon: 33:11

It's like your heart is broken. I appreciated that we didn't have to on the screen see any of the sickness of it. We just watch him looking at the screen in a tear rolling down his cheek like the sky. This federal agent and I mean we're confronted with the horrific ways that people sell each other into slavery and I can imagine somebody listening today has been part of that. It's too big of a problem that we would be naive to think that nobody listening has been complicit to something. And I just want you to hear Reconciliation is possible. This is a story about a group of people who sold somebody into slavery and they were reconciled with him Like, just let that sink into your bones. Our God is a God of reconciliation.

Jodie: 33:57

And he can reconcile relationships that we never dreamed possible, and I think you even said it earlier.

Jodie: 34:02

Though there are things that have to happen.

Jodie: 34:04

We don't reconcile with somebody who doesn't recognize what they have done or has changed in some way, and I think the interesting thing about Joseph's story is he did reconcile and he fully forgave his brothers, but he was not 100% restored into relationship with them the same way that they were back when they all lived together.

Jodie: 34:28

The story tells us that they are out in Goshen, which is this area where they could be shepherds, which is what they did for a living. So it was not in the city where Joseph was living, and so they were not in close proximity with each other. So he took care of them because he had the power to do so, and he was no longer bitter towards them, so he didn't harbor resentment, but they were not in this close restored relationship, and so I think that's helpful for us, because I think a lot of times we think reconciliation means it's like 0 to 100. Well, now we have to be back at 100%. There are things where we can reconcile to a certain point, but it may be unwise for us to enter back into the same kind of relationship we had with that person when they were wounding us or before a wounding happened, so I love that that is part of this story as well. Yeah, because it's an example for us of the different ways forgiveness can look.

Shannon: 35:23

Yeah, my friend Chris Bronze wrote a book called Unpacking Forgiveness. I just love that book. I endorsed it. It was my first book I ever endorsed before it was like way back when he talks about forgiveness being this gift that you have wrapped. It's this very expensive gift. It's a precious gift. You've got it wrapped and ready to give, but you can't really give that gift of forgiveness until the person repents.

Shannon: 35:47

I see that in Joseph he's had this stored up in his heart, Like he's actually showing compassion and kindness to his brothers. He's given them this test to see if they've changed and then he says come near to me and he's like no, no, no, don't be hard on yourselves. Let me just read that verse again. He's like I'm your brother and now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here. He's like comforting them. Can you imagine? It's like he has this precious gift he wants to give them. Yeah, you know he sees in them this repentance. He recognizes God has been working here and so he's been storing up this forgiveness, ready to give this expensive gift. And, listener, please do take into account reconciliation. It has to be a two-party situation and there has to be repentance.

Shannon: 36:28

We're to forgive as God forgives. God does not forgive unrepentant people. You know, jodie, you and I we're not universalists. We don't believe all people are reconciled to God those who have never asked him for forgiveness. They're still separated from God. So that's the way we forgive. We forgive as God forgives, in that he wants reconciliation. He has this expensive gift wrapped for all people. It's the gift of salvation and he wants to give it to anybody. But the unrepentant, they're just not ready to receive that gift. And it's the same in our relationship. So you know, if there's somebody who's abused you, who's beaten you, who's taken advantage of you, well you can wrap up that gift and have it ready to give. And it is possible. We want you to hear that hope that it is possible. And yet it is not like God to just give that gift. That would be cheap grace. You know, to just give that to an unrepentant person, right? Who's going to repeat that same crime against?

Jodie: 37:24

you, yeah. So what's interesting to me is what we do when there is somebody that is still wounding in our lives and we can't give them that, you know, kind of wrapped gift that you just talked about with forgiveness, because we still have to do work to release them, to not harbor bitterness. There's also this kind of like one-sided forgiveness that has to happen in our own hearts, like and I love how you even talked about it it's this gift that's wrapped, meaning that we've done the work, we've boxed it up, because that means when and if they were ever to come back, we could give them that, because we've already wrapped it up, we've cleaned up our side of the street, so to speak.

Shannon: 38:01

Yeah, there are people who have died and so that gift can never be given. That's right. I mean, what do you do with that? I don't know that we can totally call that forgiveness. When God forgives someone, there is reconciliation. You know, there is not this division and so we can't experience that reconciliation, but we don't want to. What's the saying? That it's sipping poison hoping the other person will die. Right, that's what bitterness is.

Jodie: 38:24

Yeah.

Shannon: 38:24

And we don't want to be tied to that. We don't want to be chained to that.

Jodie: 38:27

Yeah.

Shannon: 38:28

So you're right, we wrap this gift, we get it ready to give and we want to give it, and that's what I see in Joseph's story. So again, the false narrative is living like it's not true that reconciliation is possible Because it is. The whole overarching story is a story of reconciliation from Genesis to Revelation. Genesis is where God is living in the garden with his people, and then Revelation, god is reunited with his people in a garden, like it's a beautiful mirrored story, but in the middle it's a broken relationship. And so we want to live like it's true that reconciliation is possible. We got to have that faith, that hope, that desire, any other false narratives that you see here that the story corrects.

Jodie: 39:09

You know, I think the other false narrative that I see, that we believe, is that if I hold on to the anger and bitterness, it's actually going to make me feel better. You know, there's this like this temptation to like oh, it makes me feel good for a moment. And that's the thing with sin, because it is sin to hold on to anger and bitterness. Yeah, sin does make us feel good for a moment. It's the lasting effect that is always destructive and that is the ultimate temptation and lie of the enemy that this little thing I'm giving you. You actually want it, and the truth is it just will eat us up and it will take us down. So we have to let go of the bitterness, we have to let go of the resentment in order to live. Yeah, so good.

Shannon: 39:51

Any thoughts on how we can live like the true story is true, I kind of did it backward and then forward here, I think the way that we live, like this is true, is we remember to hold on to hope, always hold on to hope.

Jodie: 40:05

God is working with this long range plan in mind.

Shannon: 40:10

Yeah.

Jodie: 40:11

And we are living day by day and it's hard sometimes to get through those days. Yeah, face the hurt that has been inflicted upon us, but God is looking at the bigger story, and that's what Joseph ultimately learned when he was able to say God sent me ahead of you to preserve this remnant. God sent me ahead to save lives. God sent me. It wasn't you that did this evil. God sent me here. And so I think, if we can do that kind of deep mining work, hold on to hope that God is good, which we know he is, and that God can do amazing redemptive work in our life. What can we mine out of the pain and how can we let that shape us to be more like Jesus, which is our calling as disciples, so that we can follow him more closely, so that we can bring kingdom impact to the world around us, instead of getting eaten up by the hurt and pain that we've been through? Yeah, hold on to hope.

Shannon: 41:12

Yeah, resilience, and I think to have hope you have to have faith. You can't have hope if you have no faith. Right, you have to look to God and see what he's doing. I also think we live like it's true when we recognize like we aren't the ones who are in control. You know, like there's just so much of God's sovereignty playing out here. Like who gave Joseph this dream. Like we didn't really talk about the dream, but this dream about the cow and being like his rise to power all had to do with a dream. And like who planned this out? That there would be a famine and that there would be deliverance. Like only God is big enough to have those plans in mind. So, living like it's true, like God is actually in control, I can rely on Him Even when everything looks bleak. There's another false narrative in the world Like I attract good things. You know, I make things happen for myself. No, god is the one who redeems, he's the one who brings good.

Shannon: 42:04

He brings things Beauty from the ashes. And you know, this is just a story of reversal. I think living like it's true is living like there can be reconciliation. It's not hiding or minimizing what's happened, but hoping, like you said, hoping for a change of heart and attitude and accepting God's sovereignty over the details of our lives.

Jodie: 42:25

And just remembering that God will redeem the pain, even if he doesn't just remove it.

Shannon: 42:30

Yeah, so many stories of that. You know that. Just people that we meet who say, yeah, this horrible thing happened to me.

Shannon: 42:37

And yet God is using it for good Right. One story that comes to mind is my friends Jen and Linda Barrick. Jen was in a horrible car accident where a drunk driver hit them head on, going like 90 miles an hour. It was awful and Jen had a terrible brain injury. But God has done these miracles in their story and I mean it's a story of redemption where they've reached out to the driver. But Jen now lives with a closed head injury but she has this beautiful simplistic view of God's goodness in her life and she is happy. And you know they speak all over the country just telling the story of hope. It's a redemption story, how God can take selfishness, not being responsible, not being a good citizen, and God has redeemed that Well. Thank you, jodi. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Jodie: 43:23

Yeah, I love talking about Joseph with you. It was super fun.

Shannon: 43:26

So go and check out Jodi's podcast, if you will. Well, it's called so Much More, and also her study is called Trust a study of Joseph for persevering through life's challenges.